Category: Gemara

Very quickly review גמרא דף מג: “אי הכי  (thirteen lines from top of the Amud) until איתיביה אביי (middle of the Amud) 

Questions:

According to the opinion that taking Aravah post churban is just a minhag and not even a mitzvah from the Rabanan why would one have permission to handle the Aravos on Shabbos as they are muktzah?

See ריטב”א “ופרכינן אי הכי for an answer.

The Gemara answers “Because we are not experts to calculate the precise day of Yom Tov that’s why we can’t take aravos on Hoshana Rabbah that coincides with Shabbos.”

What’s the major concern even if hoshana Rabbah is really the sixth day of Sukkos there is no issue with taking the Aravah as the Gemara said in essence one should be permitted to take Aravah every day of Sukkos to publicize that it’s a mitzvah from the Torah just we don’t to prevent people from treating the mitzvah of Lulav lightly? 

Learn “תוספת מג: “לא איקלע

Learn the “גמרא מג: “איתיביה אביי (middle of the Amud) until “דף מד. “א”ל אביי (seven lines from the top of the Amud)

Questions:

What changed after the destruction of the beis hamikdash that created an issue of people in chutz laaretz doing things differently than the Jews in Eretz Yisrael?

Rashi “מד. “לדידהו says this is an issue of לא תתגודדו but the Gemara Yevomas clearly states that לא תתגודדו is only an issue when there are different practices in one city? 

Learn “תוספת מג: “והביאו

Learn תוספת דף לד. “ואחת

Questions:

Why does there need to be a uniform practice both in chutz laaretz and Eretz Yisrael?

Learn “רש”י דף מד. “לדידהו who explains because the prohibition of לא תתגודדו – having groups performing mitzvos differently as it gives the appearance of two religions.  

The גמרא יבמות דף יג:-יד states that לא תתגודדו is only an issue according to אביי when there are different practices in one city and according to רבא even in one city it is acceptable if there are two different ruling courts (שתי בתי דין) which explains how on Purim there are different days for reading the Megilah (see תוספת שם “כי & רא”ש ס’ ט) 

So how could Rashi say there is an issue of לא תתגודדו to have chutz laaretz have different practice than Eretz Yisrael when they are two different regions?  

According to the Gemara only after the destruction of the Beis Hamikdash did they institute a universal rule regarding taking Hoshanos on Hashanah Rabbah that coincides with Shabbos. 

During the time of the Beis Hamikdash why was this not an issue of לא תתגודדו?

What changed after the destruction of the beis hamikdash that created an issue of people in chutz laaretz doing things differently than the Jews in Eretz Yisrael?

See מאירי דף מג. ” ושאל בה איננו דיי בקיבועא דירחא 

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=57966&st=&pgnum=116

Why isn’t the keeping of a second day of Yom tov in chutz laaretz an issue of לא תתגודדו?

Very quickly review גמרא דף מג: “אי הכי  (thirteen lines from top of the Amud) until איתיביה אביי (middle of the Amud) 

Review תוס “שלוחי

Learn the ריטב”א and see how he gives a different explanation than Tosfos as to why the Gemara assumes that post Churban Beis Hamikdash there should be no concern of גזירה דרבה when taking the Aravah on Hoshana Rabbah when it coincides Shabbos.

Note the difference in explanation between Rashi and the ריטב”א “אי הכי כל  regarding “אתי לפקפוקי בלולב” 

Questions:

According to the opinion that taking Aravah post churban is just a minhag and not even a mitzvah from the Rabanan why would one have permission to handle the Aravos on Shabbos as they are muktzah?

See ריטב”א “ופרכינן אי הכי for an answer.

The Gemara answers “Because we are not experts to calculate the precise day of Yom Tov that’s why we can’t take aravos on Hoshana Rabbah that coincides with Shabbos.”

What’s the major concern even if hoshana Rabbah is really the sixth day of Sukkos there is no issue with taking the Aravah as the Gemara said in essence one should be permitted to take Aravah every day of Sukkos to publicize that it’s a mitzvah from the Torah just we don’t to prevent people from treating the mitzvah of Lulav lightly? 

Learn תוספת “לא איקלע

Learn the “גמרא מג: “איתיביה אביי (middle of the Amud) until “דף מד. “א”ל אביי (seven lines from the top of the Amud)

Learn תוספת מג: “והביאו

Questions:

What changed after the destruction of the beis hamikdash that created an issue of people in chutz laaretz doing things differently than the Jews in Eretz Yisrael?

Rashi says this is an issue of לא תתגודדו but the Gemara Yevomas clearly states that it is only an issue when there are different practices in one city? 

Very quickly review גמרא דף מג: “ערבה שבעה כיצד (two dots) until איתיביה אביי (middle of the Amud) 

Write or chart each question and answer of the Gemara.

Learn ריטב”א on the entire Gemara who addresses many of the questions below 

https://www.sefaria.org/Ritva_on_Sukkah.43b.1?lang=bi

The Gemara says Aravah is permitted to be taken on Shabbos when it coincides with Hoshana Rabbah because שלוחי בית דין מייתי לה 

List 

1. The argument between the ריטב”א “ומהדרינן and מהרש”א whether this a retraction from the first reason of לפרסום שהיא מן התורה

2. The argument between תוספת מג: “שלוחי and the ריטב”א as to why the Gemara assumes that post Churban Beis Hamikdash there should be no concern of גזירה דרבה when taking the Aravah on Hoshana Rabbah when it coincides Shabbos.

3. The explanation from Rashi and an alternate explanation from the ריטב”א “אי הכי כל  of “אתי לפקפוקי בלולב” 

Questions:

According to the opinion that taking Aravah post churban is just a minhag and not even a mitzvah from the Rabanan why would one have permission to handle the Aravos on Shabbos as they are muktzah?

See ריטב”א “ופרכינן אי הכי for an answer.

The Gemara answers “Because we are not experts to calculate the precise day of Yom Tov that’s why we can’t take aravos on Hoshana Rabbah that coincides with Shabbos.”

What’s the major concern even if hoshana Rabbah is really the sixth day of Sukkos there is no issue with taking the Aravah as the Gemara said in essence one should be permitted to take Aravah every day of Sukkos to publicize that it’s a mitzvah from the Torah just we don’t to prevent people from treating the mitzvah of Lulav lightly? 

Learn תוספת “לא איקלע

Learn גמרא דף מג: “ערבה שבעה כיצד (two dots) until איתיביה אביי (middle of the Amud) 

Questions:

Why doesn’t the Gemara open with a similar question that it asked on Lulav on דף מב asking why Aravah is not taken on the first six days of Sukkos when it coincides with Shabbos? 

The Gemara says Aravah is permitted to be taken on Shabbos when it coincides with Hoshana Rabbah because שלוחי בית דין מייתי לה 

Is this a retraction from the first reason of לפרסום שהיא מן התורה?

Learn ריטב”א “ומהדרינן 

See מהרש”א 

How does the fact that שלוחי בית דין מייתי לה agents of the court bring the aravos avoid the concern of someone carrying an Aravah on Shabbos? 

The Gemara ask “Why don’t we post Churban Beis Hamikdash take the Aravah on hoshana Rabbah when it coincides Shabbos” 

What is the logic to permit this as our practice is that everyone takes the Aravah not just שלוחי בית דין and therefore the גזירה דרבה is applicable and we should be concerned someone might carry the Aravah?  

Learn תוספת מג: “שלוחי

Learn ריטב”א who gives a different explanation than Rashi and Tosfos

Question on Rashi:

Rashi explains the opening question of the gemara is based on גזירה דרבה. How could the gemara than offer the explanation of גזירה דרבה when explaining why Lulav is not taken on Shabbos as this is already known? 

The Gemara says Aravah is taken only one specific day of Sukkos that coincides with Shabbos as if it would be taken any of the seven days of Sukkos that coincides with Shabbos “אתי לפקפוקי בלולב” 

See Rashi for one explanation

See ריטב”א “אי הכי כל who gives different explanation

According to the opinion that taking Aravah post churban is just a minhag and not even a mitzvah from the Rabanan why would we have permission to take them on Shabbos as the Aravos are muktzah?

See ריטב”א “ופרכינן אי הכי for an answer.

The Gemara answers “Because we are not experts to calculate the precise day of Yom Tov that’s why we can’t take aravos on Hoshana Rabbah that coincides with Shabbos.”

What’s the major concern even if hoshana Rabbah is really the sixth day of Sukkos there is no issue with taking the Aravah as the Gemara said in essence one should be permitted to take Aravah every day of Sukkos to publicize that it’s a mitzvah from the Torah just we don’t to prevent people from treating the mitzvah of Lulav lightly? 

Link to ריטב”א on the entire Gemara who addresses many of these questions

https://www.sefaria.org/Ritva_on_Sukkah.43b.1?lang=bi

Continue learning the Gemara until איתיביה אביי (middle of the Amud)