Category: Morning Chabura

Conclusion of the Sugya מבוי שנפרצה מצידו

Question:
A פירצה in the front of the side wall corner is only allowed to be 3 tefachim yet if the פירצה is in the front corner it’s allowed to be up to 4 tefachim.
What’s the explanation for the difference?
See רשב”א
And רש”ש
And מהרש”א
And תוס’ רבינו פרץ

How do we conclude l’halacha in regards to a מבוי שנפרצה מצידו?
Learn רי”ף, רא”ש ס’ סוף ס’ ד & ס’ ז
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=214&hilite=

Learn רמבם ה’ שבת יז, יז and the מגיד משנה for a novel conclusion
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14278&st=&pgnum=75

Learn שולחן ערוך ס’ שס”ה סע’ א-ב with the משנה ברורה
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=60389&st=&pgnum=72

Questions:
Would גידודי help when the פירצה is on the front end of the side wall?
See ביאור הלכה ס’ שס”ה א “ואם לא נשאר

How does one fix a פירצה on the side?
See רשב”א דף ה: “מבוי
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37275&st=&pgnum=8
and ביאור הלכה ס’ שס”ה א “אסור אלא א”כ

Why does בקעי בה רבים decrease the allowance for the opening?
See משנה ברורה שס”ה ס”ק י, שעה”צ אות ח for three reasons

Review the גמרא דף ו. “ורב חנן בר רבא (middle of the Amud) until the two dots (six lines from bottom of the Amud)

Clarify what case רב הונא agrees the size of פירצה on side wall could be 10 Amos.
What is the explanation for the different circumstances that affect the allowance of the size of פירצה on side wall

Questions:
Why does בקעי בה רבים decrease the allowance for the opening?
See משנה ברורה שס”ה ס”ק י, שעה”צ אות ח for three reasons
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=60389&st=&pgnum=72

Why does גדודי allow the opening to be larger?

How does one fix a Pirtzah on the side?
See רשב”א דף ה: “מבוי
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37275&st=&pgnum=8

Does Rav Huna argue on Rav Ami and Rav Assi?
See רמבם ה’ שבת יז, יז and מגיד משנה
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14278&st=&pgnum=75

See רא”ש סוף ס’ ז
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=214&hilite=

A Pirtza in the front of the side wall corner is only allowed to be 3 tefachim yet if the Pirtza is in the front corner it’s allowed to be up to 4 tefachim.
What’s the explanation for the difference?
See רשב”א
And רש”ש
And מהרש”א
And תוס’ רבינו פרץ

Very quickly review the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב חנן בר רבא (two dots on bottom of the Amud) until אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק (nine lines from top of the Amud)

Questions:
What is the reason why רב הונא says the allowed size of a פירצה on side wall is only up to 4 Tefachim and not 10 Amos ?
Why does this reason not apply to the front wall at the entrance to the Mavui?
Review “תוס’ ו. “אחד (second half)
See גמרא דף ה. “איתמר משמיה דרב אמי ורב אסי (middle of the Amud) until “לרב יוסף
Learn רש”י דף ה carefully

Learn ריטב”א דף ו. “רב הונא אמר אחד זה
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37287&st=&pgnum=9
According to the Ritva that רב הונא halacha applies even to the front wall at the entrance to the Mavui the reason Tosfos says for רב הונא does not apply.
What is the Ritva explanation of the opinion of רב הונא?

Learn the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק ((nine lines from top of the Amud) until the two dots (six lines from bottom of the Amud)
(Focus on the argument of רב חנן בר רבא and רב הונא for the size of פירצה on side wall – we will come back to the Sugya of מבוי עקום after we finish this topic)
Clarify what case רב הונא agrees the size of פירצה on side wall could be 10 Amos.
What is the explanation for the different circumstances that affect the allowance of the size of פירצה on side wall
Why does בקעי בה רבים decrease the allowance for the opening?
See משנה ברורה שס”ה ס”ק י, שעה”צ אות ח

Why does גדודי allow the opening to be larger?

Very quickly review the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב חנן בר רבא (two dots on bottom of the Amud) until אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק ((nine lines from top of the Amud)

Questions:
What is the reason why רב הונא says the allowed size of a פירצה on side wall is only up to 4 Tefachim and not 10 Amos ?
Why does this reason not apply to the front wall at the entrance to the Mavui?
Review “תוס’ ו. “אחד (second half)
See גמרא דף ה. “איתמר משמיה דרב אמי ורב אסי (middle of the Amud) until “לרב יוסף
Learn רש”י דף ה carefully

Learn ריטב”א דף ו. “רב הונא אמר אחד זה
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37287&st=&pgnum=9
According to the Ritva that רב הונא halacha applies even to the front wall at the entrance to the Mavui the reason Tosfos says for רב הונא does not apply.
What is the Ritva explanation of the opinion of רב הונא?

Continue learning the Gemara until the two dots (six lines from bottom of the Amud)
(Focus on the argument of רב חנן בר רבא and רב הונא for the size of פירצה on side wall – we will come back to the Sugya of מבוי עקום after we finish this topic)
Clarify what case רב הונא agrees the size of פירצה on side wall could be 10 Amos.
What is the explanation for the different circumstances that affect the allowance of the size of פירצה on side wall?

Very quickly review the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב חנן בר רבא (two dots on bottom of the Amud) until אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק ((nine lines from top of the Amud)

What is the case of קרו זוית?
Learn ריטב”א דף ו. “מאי שנא

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37287&st=&pgnum=9

See ריף דף יא: מביא רב האי גאון

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=329

and רמב”ם הלכות שבת פרק טז הלכה כ

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14278&st=&pgnum=71

Questions:
Are all doorways in corners not considered פתחים?
Learn “תוס’ ו. “דפתחא
Learn רמב”ם הלכות שבת פרק טז הלכה כ who disagrees with Tosfos
Tosfos brought a proof from the גמרא דף ה that explain the case of a Mavui with entrances from the chatzer in the corners. How does the Rambam explain that Gemara?
There are multiple explanations הגהה תוס’ ר פרץ אות 221
See ריטב”א בדף ה.
And הגהות רא”מ הורוויץ על תוס in the back of the Gemara

Questions:
What is the reason why רב הונא says the allowed size of a פירצה on side wall is only up to 4 Tefachim and not 10 Amos ?
Learn “תוס’ ו. “אחד (second half)
Why does this reason not apply to the front wall at the entrance to the Mavui?
Learn ריטב”א דף ו. “רב הונא אמר אחד זה
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37287&st=&pgnum=9
According to the Ritva that רב הונא halacha applies even to the front wall at the entrance to the Mavui the reason Tosfos says for רב הונא does not apply.
What is the Ritva explanation of the opinion of רב הונא?

Continue learning the Gemara until the two dots (six lines from bottom of the Amud)
(Focus on the argument of רב חנן בר רבא and רב הונא for the size of פירצה on side wall – we will come back to the Sugya of מבוי עקום after we finish this topic)

Learn גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב חנן בר רבא (two dots on bottom of the Amud) until אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק ((nine lines from top of the Amud)

Clarify what is defined as ‘ראשו’

Learn “תוס’ ו. “מצידו

What is the case of קרו זוית?

Learn ריטב”א דף ו. “מאי שנא

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37287&st=&pgnum=9

See ריף דף יא: מביא רב האי גאון

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=329

and רמב”ם הלכות שבת פרק טז הלכה כ

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14278&st=&pgnum=71

Questions:

Are all doorways in corners not considered פתחים?

Learn “תוס’ ו. “דפתחא

Learn רמב”ם הלכות שבת פרק טז הלכה כ who disagrees with Tosfos

What is the point of argument between Tosfos and the Rambam?

See חידושי גר”ח שבת פרק טז הלכה טז

Why does רב הונא say that even a gap in the sidewall of a Mavui of only four tefachim is considered a פירצה?

According to רב הונא is the case of פירצה בראשו in the corner or on the front side of the Mavui?

Learn “תוס’ ו. “אחד

Learn ריטב”א דף ו. “רב הונא אמר אחד זה

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37287&st=&pgnum=9

Learn גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב חנן בר רבא (two dots on bottom of the Amud) until אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק ((nine lines from top of the Amud)
Clarify what is defined as ‘ראשו’

Learn “תוס’ ו. “מצידו

Questions:
Are all doorways in corners not considered פתחים?
Learn “תוס’ ו. “דפתחא

Why does רב הונא say that even a gap in the sidewall of a Mavui of only four tefachim is considered a פירצה?
Learn “תוס’ ו. “אחד

Conclusion of Sugya שיעור לחי ועומד מרובה:

Please write a synopsis of the Sugya and how the  ח’ הג”ר משה הלוי על רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב answered the following questions on the Rambam. 

See רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב the first line and then skip to “לחי שהיה רחב הרבה”

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14278&st=&pgnum=76

Major Questions on the Rambam:

1. How could the Rambam rule that a לחי is Kosher as long as it is not more than half the width of the Mavui. Our Gemara clearly says that if the לחי is four Amos wide it is disqualified? 
2. How could the Rambam say when the lechi is the same size as the open space it is considered a Lechi when our gemara said when they are equal size the Mavui one is not permitted to carry in the Mavui? 
3. See רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק ט”ז הלכה ט”ז who rules פרוץ כעומד מותר (equal closure to open space is considered a mechitza) Why does the Rambam say that when the lechi is the same size as the open space it is considered a Lechi and not valid through the concept of פרוץ כעומד מותר?

Conclusion of Sugya שיעור לחי ועומד מרובה:
Very quickly review the גמרא דף ה: “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud) until the two dots.

Review רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב the first line and then skip to “לחי שהיה רחב הרבה”
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14278&st=&pgnum=76

Major Questions on the Rambam:
How could the Rambam rule that a לחי is Kosher as long as it is not more than half the width of the Mavui. Our Gemara clearly says that if the לחי is four Amos wide it is disqualified?
How could the Rambam say when the lechi is the same size as the open space it is considered a Lechi when our gemara said when they are equal size the Mavui one is not permitted to carry in the Mavui?
See רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק ט”ז הלכה ט”ז who rules פרוץ כעומד מותר (equal closure to open space is considered a mechitza) Why does the Rambam say that when the lechi is the same size as the open space it is considered a Lechi and not valid through the concept of פרוץ כעומד מותר?
Learn מגיד משנה “לחי הבולט who explains how the Rambam learns the conclusion of our Gemara. But remains with a question on the Rambam
Learn ח’ גרי”ז בכורות י”ז עמוד ב

Learn ח’ הג”ר משה הלוי על רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב (see below. One more page added below today for an explanation of the Rambam

Quickly review the גמרא דף ה: “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud) until the two dots.

Question:
When the closure is equal to the open space we should still permit carrying in the Mavui as we rule פרוץ כעומד מותר?

Learn תוס’ ” וספק (first two lines until וא”ת אמאי)

Learn רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב the first line and then skip to “לחי שהיה רחב ד “
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14278&st=&pgnum=76

Major Question:
The Rambam rules a לחי is Kosher as long as it is not more than half the width of the Mavui. Our Gemara clearly says that if the לחי is four Amos wide it is disqualified?

Learn מגיד משנה “לחי הבולט who explains how the Ramabam learns the conclusion of our Gemara. But remains with a question on the Rambam
Learn ח’ גרי”ז בכורות י”ז עמוד ב

Is there a difference in the concept of עומד מרובה to פרוץ כעומד מותר?
Learn ח’ הגר” משה הלוי על רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב

Learn the גמרא דף ה: “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud) until the two dots.

Question:

When the closure is equal to the open space we should still permit carrying in the Mavui as we rule פרוץ כעומד מותר?

Learn תוס’ ” וספק (first two lines until וא”ת אמאי)

Learn רי”ף

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=327

Learn רבינו יהונתן “דהוה ליה פרוץ

Learn רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב the first line and then skip to “לחי שהיה רחב ד “

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14278&st=&pgnum=76

Learn רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב the first line and then skip to “לחי שהיה רחב ד “
Major Question:
The Rambam rules a לחי is Kosher as long as it is not more than half the width of the Mavui. Our Gemara clearly says that if the לחי is four Amos wide it is disqualified?
Learn מגיד משנה “לחי הבולט who explains how the Ramabam learns the conclusion of our Gemara. But remains with a question on the Rambam
Learn ח’ גרי”ז בכורות י”ז עמוד ב

Is there a difference in the concept of עומד מרובה to פרוץ כעומד מותר?
Learn ח’ הגר” משה הלוי על רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב

Quickly review the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב הונא (eight lines from top of the Amud) until “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud)

Review the second half of “תוס’ “קל וחומר starting from “ואמחיצה רביעית”

Question:
Does a פס ד need to be recognizable that it was placed there to be a tikun for the Chatzer or Mavui?
Learn “תוס’ “אינו
Clarify the difference in the operation of Tikunei Chatzer and Mavui according to Tosfos.

Major Question:
Tosfos says that עמוד מרובה is accepted on the three primary sides of a Mavui. This is a contradiction to Tosfos above who said we can only learn עמוד מרובה works on the fourth side?
Learn “תוס’ רבינו פרץ “אבל במבוי

Continue learning the גמרא דף ה: “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud) until the two dots.
Learn תוס’ ” וספק (first two lines until וא”ת אמאי)

Learn רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק י”ז הלכה כב the first line and then skip to “לחי שהיה רחב ד “
Major Question:
The Rambam rules a לחי is Kosher as long as it is not more than half the width of the Mavui. Our Gemara clearly says that if the לחי is four Amos wide it is disqualified?
Learn מגיד משנה “לחי הבולט who explains how the Ramabam learns the conclusion of our Gemara. But remains with a question on the Rambam
Learn ח’ גרי”ז בכורות י”ז עמוד ב

Quickly review the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב הונא (eight lines from top of the Amud) until “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud)

Review the second half of “תוס’ “קל וחומר starting from “ואמחיצה רביעית”
Major Question:
The concept of עמוד מרובה is a halacha l’moshe misinai in the laws of mechitza. Why should we need a קל וחומר from חצר to teach us it is considered a valid wall for the fourth side of a Mavui?
Why is עמוד מרובה not accepted for the other three sides of a Mavui especially when we see it works by a חצר?
We discussed the explanation of the Brisker Rav (גרי”ז בכורות דף יז עמוד ב “והנה בעירובין) that Rabanan made a tikun on the fourth side of a Mavui that it needs to be considered closed. Therefore the קל וחומר is needed to teach us that עמוד מרובה besides being considered a mechitza is also viewed as closing the fourth side.

Tosfos says although עמוד מרובה is acceptable for a Chatzer on all four sides we can only learn from a קל וחומר to Mavui that it should be valid for the fourth side. The Brisker Rav said that the קל וחומר is only needed to teach us that עמוד מרובה is an acceptable Tikun of the fourth side and we view it as closing the fourth side. How could Tosfos entertain the idea that we could learn that עמוד מרובה should work for the other three sides?
Learn מהרש”א
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=263

In conclusion, is עמוד מרובה accepted for the other three sides of a Mavui?
Learn מהרש”א מהדורא בתרא
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=296
Learn שפת אמת על תוס’ “ק”ו
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14521&st=&pgnum=187

Question:
Does a פס ד need to be recognizable that it was placed there to be a tikun for the Chatzer or Mavui?
Learn “תוס’ “אינו
Clarify the Tikunim of chatzer and mavui according to Tosfos.
Question:
Tosfos says that עמוד מרובה is accepted on the other three sides of a Mavui. This is contradiction to Tosfos above who said we can not learn that from the ק”ו?
Learn “תוס’ רבינו פרץ “אבל במבוי

Review the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב הונא (eight lines from top of the Amud) until “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud)

Review “תוס’ “קל וחומר
Major Question:
The concept of עמוד מרובה is a halacha l’moshe misinai in the laws of mechitza. Why should we need a קל וחומר from חצר to teach us it is considered a valid wall for the fourth side of a Mavui?
Why is עמוד מרובה not accepted for the other three sides of a Mavui especially when we see it works by a חצר?
Yesterday we discussed the explanation of the Brisker Rav (גרי”ז בכורות דף יז עמוד ב “והנה בעירובין) that Rabanan made a tikun on the fourth side of a Mavui that it needs to be considered closed. Therefore the קל וחומר is needed to teach us that עמוד מרובה besides being considered a mechitza is also viewed as closing the fourth side.

Tosfos says although עמוד מרובה is acceptable for a Chatzer on all four sides we can only learn from a קל וחומר to Mavui that it should be valid for the fourth side. Why?

In conclusion, is עמוד מרובה accepted for the other three sides of a Mavui?
Learn מהרש”א
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=263

Learn מהרש”א מהדורא בתרא
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=296

Learn שפת אמת על תוס’ “ק”ו
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14521&st=&pgnum=187

Question:
Does a פס ד need to be recognizable that it was placed there to be a tikun for the Chatzer or Mavui?
Learn “תוס’ “אינו
Learn תוס’ רבינו פרץ “אבל במבוי

Learn the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב הונא (eight lines from top of the Amud) until “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud)

Learn “תוס’ “קל וחומר
Major Question:
The concept of עמוד מרובה is a halacha l’moshe misinai in the laws of mechitza. Why should we need a קל וחומר from חצר to teach us it is considered a valid wall for the fourth side of a Mavui?
Why is עמוד מרובה not accepted for the other three sides of a Mavui especially when we see it works by a חצר?
Learn גריז בכורות דף יז עמוד ב “והנה בעירובין
and חזון איש ה’ עירובין ס’ ס”ה ס”ק א-ב for an explanation.

Question:
Does a פס ד need to be recognizable that it was placed there to be a tikun for the Chatzer or Mavui?
Learn “תוס’ “אינו

Review the גמרא דף ה. “גופא אמר רמי בר חמא (two dots – two lines from bottom of the Amud) until דף ה: “אמר רב הונא (eight lines from top of the Amud)
Learn תוס’ “פחות

Questions:
Rashi says if one built a wall of four Amos intentionally as a לחי it is valid. Why is the new לחי which is being added to the wall of four Amos disqualified?
Learn מלא הרועים

Why is adding a לחי to an existing wall of four Amos invalidated according to the opinion of לחי משום מחיצה? Wouldn’t the extra closure be better?
Learn תוס’ “ארבע

Continue learning the גמרא דף ה: “אמר רב הונא (eight lines from top of the Amud) until “רב אשי אמר (seven lines from bottom of the Amud)

Review “תוס’ דף ה “דפתח ליה בקרן זוית

What is the point of disagreement between Rashi and Tosfos?

Learn מהרש”א

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=263

and רש”ש

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=298&hilite=

Learn the גמרא דף ה. “גופא אמר רמי בר חמא (two dots – two lines from bottom of the Amud) until דף ה: “אמר רב הונא (eight lines from top of the Amud)

Questions:

Rashi says if one built a wall of four Amos intentionally as a לחי it is valid. Why cant adding a לחי to an existing wall of four Amos be valid?

Learn מלא הרועים

https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=315

Why is adding a לחי to an existing wall of four Amos invalidated according to the opinion of לחי משום מחיצה? Wouldn’t the extra closure be better?

Learn תוס’ “ארבע

Learn the גמרא דף ה. “אמר אביי until “אמר אביי” (nine lines from the bottom of the Amud)
Learn “תוס’ “ואי
What is the point of disagreement between Rashi and Tosfos?
Learn מהרש”א

Learn “תוס’ “דפתח ליה בקרן זוית
What is the point of disagreement between Rashi and Tosfos?
Learn מהרש”א https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=263

Learn the גמרא דף ה. “אמר אביי (nine lines from the bottom of the Amud) until the two dots (two lines from bottom of the Amud)

Very quickly review the גמרא דף ה. “היה פחות מעשרה טפחים until “אמר אביי”
Focus on the reason why a lechi or a korah will not allow one to carry in a mavui where there is no side wall of 4 tefachim at the entrance of the mavui.
Review רש”י מתיר פירצה “מתיר who gives an explanation.

Learn תוס’ “סוף
What is the point of disagreement between Rashi and Tosfos?

Learn the גמרא דף ה. “אמר אביי until “אמר אביי” (nine lines from the bottom of the Amud)
Learn תוס’ “ואי
What is the point of disagreement between Rashi and Tosfos?

Learn תוס’ “דפתח ליה בקרן זוית
What is the point of disagreement between Rashi and Tosfos?

Very quickly review the גמרא דף ה. “היה פחות מעשרה טפחים until “אמר אביי”
Questions:
Is the case of the gemara that the קורה is placed within 10 tefachim of the ground or the walls of the entire מבוי are less than 10 tefachim?
Bring a proof from Rashi
Learn ריטב”א דף ה. “רב יוסף
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37287&st=&pgnum=7
Bring a proof from Ritva
Learn רשב”א עבודת הקודש שער א ס’ ג “הניח את הקורה למטה מעשרה
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49498&st=&pgnum=5
Learn גאון יעקב דף ה. “עד כאן לא קאמרי who discusses this point
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14053&st=&pgnum=24

How wide does the excavation need to be? 4 tefachim? 4 Amos? the width of the mavui?
Learn רא”ש ס’ ד “אם היה גבוה פחות מעשרה
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=213
See רי”ף
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14312&st=&pgnum=326
Learn גאון יעקב דף ה. “עד כאן לא פליגי who discusses this point
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14053&st=&pgnum=21