We have finished the Hachzara sugiya, but I still have a few questions on halacha lemaase, would it be possible to cover them?
I would like to discuss a few of these questions this week
1. When the oven is working on Shabbos (the oven is in Shabbos mode and the controls are covered), there is hot air coming out of the exhaust at the back of the oven. Is it allowed to put the food over the exhaust, or the exhaust opening has the status of kira which is not grufa vektuma?
2. What is the minimum depth of the pot which we turn upside down on the blech to put food on it?
3. Is there a maximum size of the pot which we turn upside down? For example, can it be a commercial baking pan that covers the whole blech?
4. Stam pot without food in it is muktze, correct? If yes, should the pot that will be turned upside down to put food on it be designated before Shabbos, or any pot can be used?
5. Can food be placed directly on blech far from the fire, where it is not yad soledet bo?
6. Can food be placed directly on blech not over the fire, where it is yad soledet bo?
As well as the questions below
The prevalent practice is to use a blech on a stovetop which would serve as קטום. What is the source that a sheet of metal would accomplish the same halachic status as placing ash on the coals?
See שולחן ערוך אורח חיים ס’ רנ”ג סע’ ג and משנה ברורה ס”ק פא
In many electrical appliances the heating elements are covered by a sheet of metal like a crock pot which the walls of the crock pot covers the coils. Does one need to cover/line the crock pot or is the sheet of metal/ walls considered a blech?
May one move a pot which is placed on the blech in an area which is not directly over the fire to a part of the blech which is directly over the fire?
Is the entire blech considered a stovetop which is גרוף וקטום or is it considered just סמוך לכירה?
Bring a proof
Learn אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סע’ סט & ע with the footnotes
Learn אגרות משה או”ח חלק ד ס’ עד, בישול אות יב
Learn חזון איש או”ח ס’ ל”ז ס”ק י
Learn שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כה & הערה קכו
And קובץ הלכות שבת ח”ב פרק כו סע’ מ & הערה נה
Focus on next question
The prevalent practice is to use a blech on a stovetop which would serve as קטום. What is the source that a sheet of metal would accomplish the same halachic status as placing ash on the coals?
See שולחן ערוך אורח חיים ס’ רנ”ג סע’ ג and משנה ברורה ס”ק פא
In many electrical appliances the heating elements are covered by a sheet of metal like a crock pot which the walls of the crock pot covers the coils. Does one need to cover/line the crock pot or is the sheet of metal/ walls considered a blech?
May one move a pot which is placed on the blech in an area which is not directly over the fire to a part of the blech which is directly over the fire?
Is the entire blech considered a stovetop which is גרוף וקטום or is it considered just סמוך לכירה?
Bring a proof
Learn אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סע’ סט & ע with the footnotes
Learn אגרות משה או”ח חלק ד ס’ עד, בישול אות יב
Learn חזון איש או”ח ס’ ל”ז ס”ק י
Learn שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כה & הערה קכו
And קובץ הלכות שבת ח”ב פרק כו סע’ מ & הערה נה
The prevalent practice is to use a blech on a stovetop which would serve as קטום. What is the source that a sheet of metal would accomplish the same halachic status as placing ash on the coals?
See שולחן ערוך אורח חיים ס’ רנ”ג סע’ ג and משנה ברורה ס”ק פא
In many electrical appliances the heating elements are covered by a sheet of metal like a crock pot which the walls of the crock pot covers the coils. Does one need to cover/line the crock pot or is the sheet of metal/ walls considered a blech?
Many people have the practice of turning a pan upside down and placing cold fully cooked solid food from the refrigerator on top of the upside down pan on Shabbos morning?
Is this permitted according to the פרי מגדים?
Learn שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף מד & הערה קכו
And see קובץ הלכות שבת ח”ב פרק כו סע’ לד & הערה מח
Question:
If one places a pan of food on top of a soup pot which is on the blech. May one move the pan on Shabbos and place it directly on the blech?
Point to consider:
What is the status of a pot of food that is resting on top of another pot which is on the stovetop.
Is it considered on the fire which is גרוף וקטום or is it considered just סמוך לכירה ?
A pot that was left on a hot spot on the blech and then moved over to a spot which is not יד סולדת with intent to return to the hotter area but person let go of the pot, may it be returned to the hot spot on the blech?
In the event someone removed a hot pot from the fire on Friday before Shabbos and placed it on the counter with intent to place on the blech and discovered on Shabbos that he forgot to place on the blech. May he place on the blech on Shabbos?
See אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף נא והערה פד
A pot that was left on a hot spot on the blech and then moved over to a spot which is not יד סולדת with intent to return to the hotter area but person let go of the pot, may it be returned to the hot spot on the blech?
Write a summary of the laws of chazarah and all it’s conditions based on שולחן ערוך ס’ רנ”ג סעיף ב and the משנה ברורה
Questions:
In case of need which conditions do not need to be met?
What are the following surfaces more comparable to – placing on a bed or placing on the floor?
Kitchen countertop, table, refrigerator?
See קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ מז והערה אות סו
and אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מה והערה עג
And שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כ אות ד והערה ס -סא
For the condition of עודו בידו does one need to hold the pot in their hands or is placing on the counter and keeping ones hand onto the pot handle sufficient?
Would the same apply if placed the pot on the floor and held onto to the handle?
See קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ מו והערה אות סד
and אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מז והערה עו
And שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כ אות ד והערה סב
In the event someone removed a hot pot from the fire on Friday before Shabbos and placed it on the counter with intent to place on the blech and discovered on Shabbos that he forgot to place on the blech. May he place on the blech on Shabbos?
Are these cases similar to the case and machlokes between Rebbe Akiva Eiger & Rav Shachris or different?
If it is different is it more of a reason to say it is permissable to return to the bleach or prohibited? – Why?
1. A pot slides off the blech on to the counter top?
2. A pot slides to the floor?
3. The electricity or fire goes out?
(See אגרות משה או”ח חלק ד ס’ ע”ד בישול אות לא, קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ מט והערה סח, שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כז והערה עט, שו”ת בצל החכמה חלק ד ס’ קלז ס”ק יט, אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מט והערה פב)
4. The electricity goes out and a few hours later goes back on by the electric company and the food remained on hot plate the entire time?
See אורחת שבת above)
5. Someone mistakenly takes the Shabbos day cholent off the fire thinking it is the chicken soup pot for the Friday night sueda and places on the counter without intent to return?
What if he places it on the ground?
(See קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ גם והערה עה, שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כג והערה עה ,שו”ת בצל החכמה חלק ד ס’ קלז ס”ק יח, אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מה והערה עח)
Questions:
Write a summary of the laws of chazarah and all it’s conditions based on שולחן ערוך ס’ רנ”ג סעיף ב and the משנה ברורה
In case of need which conditions do not need to be met?
What are the following surfaces more comparable to – placing on a bed or placing on the floor?
Kitchen countertop, table, refrigerator?
See קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ מז והערה אות סו
and אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מה והערה עג
And שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כ אות ד והערה ס -סא
For the condition of עודו בידו does one need to hold the pot in their hands or is placing on the counter and keeping ones hand onto the pot handle sufficient?
Would the same apply if placed the pot on the floor and held onto to the handle?
See קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ מו והערה אות סד
and אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מז והערה עו
And שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כ אות ד והערה סב
In the event someone removed a hot pot from the fire on Friday before Shabbos and placed it on the counter with intent to place on the blech and discovered on Shabbos that he forgot to place on the blech. May he place on the blech on Shabbos?
Review ביאור הלכה ס’ רנ”ג סעיף ב “ואם הניח על גבי קרקע which summarizes the halacha of the case of Rebbe Akiva Eiger whether it is permitted to return a pot to the stovetop that was removed from the fire without permission of the owner without intent to return but it is still in his hand.
What is the halacha in the cases below?
Are these cases similar to the case and machlokes between Rebbe Akiva Eiger & Rav Shachris or different?
If it is different is it more of a reason to say it is permissable to return to the bleach or prohibited? – Why?
1. A pot slides off the blech on to the counter top?
2. A pot slides to the floor?
3. The electricity or fire goes out?
(See אגרות משה או”ח חלק ד ס’ ע”ד בישול אות לא, קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ מט והערה סח, שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כז והערה עט, שו”ת בצל החכמה חלק ד ס’ קלז ס”ק יט, אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מט והערה פב)
4. The electricity goes out and a few hours later goes back on by the electric company and the food remained on hot plate the entire time?
See אורחת שבת above)
5. Someone mistakenly takes the Shabbos day cholent off the fire thinking it is the chicken soup pot for the Friday night sueda and places on the counter without intent to return?
What if he places it on the ground?
(See קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ גם והערה עה, שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כג והערה עה ,שו”ת בצל החכמה חלק ד ס’ קלז ס”ק יח, אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מה והערה עח)
Write a summary of the laws of chazarah and all it’s conditions based on שולחן ערוך ס’ רנ”ג סעיף ב and the משנה ברורה
In case of need which conditions do not need to be met?
Questions:
What are the following surfaces more comparable to – placing on a bed or placing on the floor?
Kitchen countertop, table, refrigerator?
See קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ מז והערה אות סו
and אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מה והערה עג
And שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כ אות ד והערה ס -סא
For the condition of עודו בידו does one need to hold the pot in their hands or is placing on the counter and keeping ones hand onto the pot handle sufficient?
Would the same apply if placed the pot on the floor and held onto to the handle?
See קובץ הלכות ה’ שבת חלק ב פרק כו סע’ מו והערה אות סד
and אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סעיף מז והערה עו
And שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כ אות ד והערה סב
In the event someone removed a hot pot from the fire on Friday before Shabbos and placed it on the counter with intent to place on the blech and discovered on Shabbos that he forgot to place on the blech. May he place on the blech on Shabbos?
B) As long as there is no specific intent not to return?
What is the halacha if a pot slides off the blech onto the countertop, may it be returned to the blech?
If the electricity or fire goes out is it permitted to move the pot to a different fire?
Review ה’ רע”א ס’ רנ”ג אות ו
What is the reason if someone removes your pot from the fire on Shabbos and places it on the ground it is prohibited to return it to the stovetop?
According to Rebbe Akiva Eiger what is the machlokes between Tosfos and the Rash whether it is permitted to return a pot to the stovetop that was removed from the fire without permission of the owner without intent to return it to the fire but it is still in his hand?
Learn אבי עזרי ה’ שבת פרק ג הלכה י who asks a question on Rebbe Akiva Eiger
Learn ביאור הלכה ס’ רנ”ג סעיף ב “ואם הניח על גבי קרקע which summarizes the halacha of the case of Rebbe Akiva Eiger
Based on Rebbe Akiva Eiger what should be the halacha in the case a pot slides off the stovetop?
What is the point of disagreement between Rav Shach (אבי עזרי) and Rebbe Akiva Eiger?
See letter in back of ספר אורחת שבת ח”א from Hagaon Rav Shmuel Aurbach zt”l for an answer to the question of Rav Shach.
If someone removes your pot from the fire on Shabbos and places it in the ground is it permitted to return it to the stovetop?
If someone removes your pot from the fire on Shabbos and does not have intent to return it to the fire but it is still in his hand. Is it permitted to return it to the stovetop?
Learn ה’ רע”א ס’ רנ”ג אות ו
Learn ביאור הלכה ס’ רנ”ג סעיף ב “ואם הניח על גבי קרקע
Point to consider
Is the requirement of דעתו להחזיר to have specific intent to return or as long as do not have specific intent not to return?
What is the halacha if a pot slides off the blech onto the countertop, may it be returned to the blech?
If the electricity or fire goes out is it permitted to move the pot to a different fire?
What is the reason if someone removed your pot from the fire on Shabbos and placed it on the ground it is prohibited to return it to the stovetop?
According to Rebbe Akiva Eiger what is the machlokes between Tosfos and the Rash whether it is permitted to return a pot to the stovetop that was removed from the fire without permission of the owner without intent to return it to the fire but it is still in his hand?
Learn אבי עזרי ה’ שבת פרק ג הלכה י who asks a question on Rebbe Akiva Eiger
Based on Rebbe Akiva Eiger what should be the halacha in the case a pot slides off the stovetop?
What is the point of disagreement between Rav Shach (אבי עזרי) and Rebbe Akiva Eiger?
See letter in back of ספר אורחת שבת ח”א from Hagaon Rav Shmuel Auerbach zt”l for an answer to the question of Rav Shach.
Focus on the יש אומרים שכל זה אינו אסור – the chidush of the ר”ן from the ירושלמי
See משנה ברורה ס”ק סג-סז
Major Question:
Why does the Mishna Berura not permit returning a pot to the fire when it was placed on the ground with intent to return as the Rema says was the accepted practice?
Can we rely on the ruling of the ר”ן in cases of בדיעבד ?
Learn חזון איש או”ח ס’ ל”ז ס”ק יב
See שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כא-כב
And קובץ הלכות פרק כו סעיף מה with footnote סג
Is the requirement of דעתו להחזיר to have specific intent to return or as long as do not have specific intent not to return.
What is the halacha if a pot slides off the blech on to the counter top, may it be returned to the blech?
If the electricity or fire goes out is it permitted to move the pot to a different fire?
Learn הגהות רע”א על שולחן ערוך ס’ רנ”ג אות ו
What is the reason if someone removes your pot from the fire on Shabbos and places it on the ground it is prohibited to return it to the stovetop?
According to Rebbe Akiva Eiger what is the machlokes between Tosfos and the Rash whether it is permitted to return a pot to the stovetop that was removes from the fire without permission of the owner without intent to return it to the fire but it is still in his hand?
Learn אבי עזרי ה’ שבת פרק ג הלכה י who asks a question on Rebbe Akiva Eiger
Based on Rebbe Akiva Eiger what should be the halacha in the case a pot slides off the stovetop?
What is the point of disagreement between Rav Shach (אבי עזרי) and Rebbe Akiva Eiger?
See letter in back of ספר אורחת שבת ח”א from Hagaon Rav Shmuel Auerbach zt”l for an answer to the question of Rav Shach.
Focus on the יש אומרים שכל זה אינו אסור – the chidush of the ר”ן from the ירושלמי
See משנה ברורה ס”ק סג-סז
Major Question:
Why does the Mishna Berura not permit returning a pot to the fire when it was placed on the ground with intent to return as the Rema says was the accepted practice?
Can we rely on the ruling of the ר”ן in cases of בדיעבד ?
How do we rule l’halacha in regards to the conditions of עודה בידו and דעתו להחזיר in order to return pot onto a stovetop as the Gemara lists different opinions whether both, one or none are required?
In the event that a pot was removed from the stovetop and lacking the condition of either holding on hand or intent to return may one return the pot to the fire?
Learn ר”ן דף יז: דפי הריף “לא שנו
Learn רא”ש ס’ ב last two lines
Learn רמב”ם ה’ שבת פרק ג הלכה י
Learn טור ס’ רנ”ג סעיף ב
Learn beginning of שולחן ערוך ס’ רנ”ג סעיף ב
What is the ruling of the Mechaber?
What is the ruling of the Rema?
What is the Rema adding by stating the condition of עודה בידו to the Mechaber who says if placed on ground it may not be returned?
Very quickly review the גמרא דף לח: “בעי רב אשי פינה ממיחם למיחם (line before the Mishna) until the Mishna
Question:
What is the uncertainty in the case of פינה ממיחם למיחם (transferring the food to a different pot) whether it is permitted to return the second pot to the stove?
Clarify how the explanation of רש”י “פינה is different than תוס’ “פינה
Major Question:
Tosfos says there is a potential concern when one transfers hot food into a second pot that one might come to stoke the coals. How could there be a חשש שמא יחתה when we are dealing with a stove that is גרוף וקטום?
Learn ר”ן דף יז: דפי הריף “בעי רב אשי for an additional two answers
How are the two explanations of the Ran different than each other?
How are the two explanations of the Ran different than Tosfos?
According to the Ran what is the Halacha in regards to returning the second kettle to the fire. Is it permitted or prohibited?
Halachic Conclusion:
What is the halachik conclusion of פינה ממיחם למיחם ?
May one transfer the contents of a Crock-Pot into a second pot and return the second pot to the fire?
The Ran says if one returns the contents back to the original pot it is possibly prohibited to return the pot to the fire as it is considered he placed the pot on the ground when placing it into the second pot. Why would this reasoning not prohibit returning the second pot itself to the fire?
See קובץ הלכות פרק כו הערה עג
According to the Mishna Berura is it permitted if the water is placed into a cup and then poured into the Crock-Pot?
See שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א הערה מט
According to the Magen Avraham is it permitted to add hot water directly from a hot water urn into a crock pot?
Review the גמרא דף לח: “א”ר זריקא (seven lines from the top of the Amud) until the Mishna
Questions:
What is the reason why if the pot is placed on the ground it would be prohibited to return the food to the stove?
See רש”י “אבל הניח על גבי קרקע
What is the uncertainty in the case of פינה ממיחם למיחם (transferring the food to a different pot) whether it is permitted to return the second pot to the stove?
See רש”י “פינה
Learn תוס’ “פינה who asks a question from Gemara in the fourth perek.
See תוס’ ישנים answer from the רשב”א
Major Question:
Tosfos says there is a potential concern when one transfers hot food into a second pot that one might come to stoke the coals. How could there be a חשש שמא יחצה when we are dealing with a stove that is גרוף וקטום?
Learn ר”ן דף יז: דפי הריף “בעי רב אשי for an additional two answers
How are the two explanations of the Ran different than each other?
How are the two explanations of the Ran different than Tosfos?
How do we conclude lhalacha? Do we rule like Rabanan or like Chanania?
Review שולחן ערוך ס’ רנ”ג סע’ א which brings two opinions.
Question:
According to which opinion does the מחבר conclude?
Bring a proof
Learn the Mishna Berura
Is the רמ”א concluding the halcha is in accordance with Chanania or saying that if one follows the accepted Minhag like Chanania it is Ok, but really should follow like Rabanan?
Learn ביאור הלכה “ונהגו להקל כסברא אחרונה And הגהות חזון איש on the ביאור הלכה who argue what is the ruling of the רא”ש
