See ראש יוסף who sums up the Rishonim into three opinions.
In conclusion:
Is the prohibition in the Mishna a prohibition of leaving the water in this urn before Shabbos? Or just a prohibition of drinking the water from this urn?
Learn the Second Mishna on דף מא and the “גמרא דף מא. “מאי קאמר until “דף מא: “אמר רב (five lines from bottom of the Amud)
Is the prohibition in the Mishna a prohibition of leaving the water in this urn before Shabbos? Or just a prohibition of drinking the water from this urn?
Review the משנה דף מא. “מוליאר and the Gemara until the next Mishna
Questions:
Is the prohibition in the Mishna a prohibition of leaving the water in this urn before Shabbos? Or just a prohibition of drinking the water from this urn?
Is the Mishna in accordance with the opinion of the Rabanan who prohibit שהייה on an item that is not fully cooked or חנניה who permits שהייה if the food is cooked כמאכל בן דרוסאי
(At what stage is water considered cooked כמאכל בן דרוסאי?)
Learn תוס’ “מוליאר
Clarify Tosfos explanation of the Mishna and how it answers all his questions.
We have finished the Hachzara sugiya, but I still have a few questions on halacha lemaase, would it be possible to cover them?
I would like to discuss a few of these questions this week
1. When the oven is working on Shabbos (the oven is in Shabbos mode and the controls are covered), there is hot air coming out of the exhaust at the back of the oven. Is it allowed to put the food over the exhaust, or the exhaust opening has the status of kira which is not grufa vektuma?
2. What is the minimum depth of the pot which we turn upside down on the blech to put food on it?
3. Is there a maximum size of the pot which we turn upside down? For example, can it be a commercial baking pan that covers the whole blech?
4. Stam pot without food in it is muktze, correct? If yes, should the pot that will be turned upside down to put food on it be designated before Shabbos, or any pot can be used?
5. Can food be placed directly on blech far from the fire, where it is not yad soledet bo?
6. Can food be placed directly on blech not over the fire, where it is yad soledet bo?
As well as the questions below
The prevalent practice is to use a blech on a stovetop which would serve as קטום. What is the source that a sheet of metal would accomplish the same halachic status as placing ash on the coals?
See שולחן ערוך אורח חיים ס’ רנ”ג סע’ ג and משנה ברורה ס”ק פא
In many electrical appliances the heating elements are covered by a sheet of metal like a crock pot which the walls of the crock pot covers the coils. Does one need to cover/line the crock pot or is the sheet of metal/ walls considered a blech?
May one move a pot which is placed on the blech in an area which is not directly over the fire to a part of the blech which is directly over the fire?
Is the entire blech considered a stovetop which is גרוף וקטום or is it considered just סמוך לכירה?
Bring a proof
Learn אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סע’ סט & ע with the footnotes
Learn אגרות משה או”ח חלק ד ס’ עד, בישול אות יב
Learn חזון איש או”ח ס’ ל”ז ס”ק י
Learn שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כה & הערה קכו
And קובץ הלכות שבת ח”ב פרק כו סע’ מ & הערה נה
Focus on next question
The prevalent practice is to use a blech on a stovetop which would serve as קטום. What is the source that a sheet of metal would accomplish the same halachic status as placing ash on the coals?
See שולחן ערוך אורח חיים ס’ רנ”ג סע’ ג and משנה ברורה ס”ק פא
In many electrical appliances the heating elements are covered by a sheet of metal like a crock pot which the walls of the crock pot covers the coils. Does one need to cover/line the crock pot or is the sheet of metal/ walls considered a blech?
(For explanation according to the Rif what the uncertainty of Rebbe Zeira was and how this coincides with conclusion of the difference of the pol of water has high walls or not – see שפת אמת)
How does the Shulchan Aruch conclude?
Learn שולחן ערוך אורח חיים ס’ של”ט סע’ ב and the משנה ברורה
May one move a pot which is placed on the blech in an area which is not directly over the fire to a part of the blech which is directly over the fire?
Is the entire blech considered a stovetop which is גרוף וקטום or is it considered just סמוך לכירה?
Bring a proof
Learn אורחת שבת ח”א פרק ב סע’ סט & ע with the footnotes
Learn אגרות משה או”ח חלק ד ס’ עד, בישול אות יב
Learn חזון איש או”ח ס’ ל”ז ס”ק י
Learn שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף כה & הערה קכו
And קובץ הלכות שבת ח”ב פרק כו סע’ מ & הערה נה
The prevalent practice is to use a blech on a stovetop which would serve as קטום. What is the source that a sheet of metal would accomplish the same halachic status as placing ash on the coals?
See שולחן ערוך אורח חיים ס’ רנ”ג סע’ ג and משנה ברורה ס”ק פא
In many electrical appliances the heating elements are covered by a sheet of metal like a crock pot which the walls of the crock pot covers the coils. Does one need to cover/line the crock pot or is the sheet of metal/ walls considered a blech?
Very quickly review the גמרא דף מ: “א”ר יצחק בר אבדימי (middle of the wide lines) until “היכי עביד הכי”
Question:
Why is it permitted to place uncooked food in a כלי שני? Why should a כלי שני be different than a כלי ראשון if the temperature of the water is still hot enough to cook?
Learn תוס’ “ושמע מינה
Question on Tosfos:
What is the exact reason why kli sheini can not cook. Is it because the walls cool down the liquid or is it because the walls are not hot?
Many people have the practice of turning a pan upside down and placing cold fully cooked solid food from the refrigerator on top of the upside down pan on Shabbos morning?
Is this permitted according to the פרי מגדים?
Learn שמירת שבת כהלכתו פרק א סעיף מד & הערה קכו
And see קובץ הלכות שבת ח”ב פרק כו סע’ לד & הערה מח
Question:
If one places a pan of food on top of a soup pot which is on the blech. May one move the pan on Shabbos and place it directly on the blech?
Point to consider:
What is the status of a pot of food that is resting on top of another pot which is on the stovetop.
Is it considered on the fire which is גרוף וקטום or is it considered just סמוך לכירה ?
Why is the case of a timer that will shut off the electricity before the water can get hot different from heating towels?
Major Question:
Why is it permitted to place uncooked food in a כלי שני? Why should a כלי שני be different than a כלי ראשון if the temperature of the water is still hot enough to cook?
Learn תוס’ “ושמע מינה
Question on Tosfos:
What is the exact reason why kli sheini can not cook. Is it because the walls cool down the liquid or is it because the walls are not hot?
Why is the case of a timer that will shut off the electricity before the water can get hot different than heating towels?
Major Question:
Why is it permitted to place uncooked food in a כלי שני? Why should a כלי שני be different than a כלי ראשון if the temperature of the water is still hot enough to cook?
Learn תוס’ “ושמע מינה
What is the exact reason why kli sheini can not cook. Is it because the walls cool down the liquid or is because the walls are not hot?
Would a thermos be considered a kli sheini?
Continue learning the גמרא דף מ. “היכי עביד הכי until “א”ר זירא ” (three lines from the bottom of the Amud)
Next Gemara deals with the topic of swimming on Shabbos
Learn the גמרא דף מ: “א”ר זירא (three lines from the bottom of the Amud) until the two dots on top of דף מא
Why is the case of a timer that will shut off the electricity before the water can get hot different than heating towels?
Major Question:
Why is it permitted to place uncooked food in a כלי שני? Why should a כלי שני be different than a כלי ראשון if the temperature of the water is still hot enough to cook?
Learn תוס’ “ושמע מינה
Continue learning the גמרא דף מ. “היכי עביד הכי until “א”ר זירא ” (three lines from the bottom of the Amud)
